I’ve finally enabled comments on this site, so please leave me thoughts, questions, and more!
Slight change of pace today. Instead of the standard focus on college admissions topics, we’ll talk about life in college itself.
Stanford or Harvard? Harvard or Stanford? It’s a question that many people debate. Obviously, getting into either is a significant accomplishment that can’t be won without a great admissions strategy.
But everyone needs a better understanding of what they’re getting into. In this article, I’ll address the key academic and cultural differences between the two schools. Hopefully after reading, you’ll have a clear idea of which one is a better fit for you.
I cover Harvard vs Stanford and not, for instance, Harvard vs Yale because the differences between Stanford and the top Ivies (HYP) are pretty significant, while the differences amongst the top Ivies is, in my opinion, marginal
The academic differences between Stanford and Harvard
1. Stanford has an engineering program, while Harvard doesn’t (not really, anyway)
This will make a big difference if you want to pursue studies in, say, mechanical engineering or electrical engineering. These are intensive majors, and will leave little time for anything else. But if intensive engineering really isn’t your thing, this won’t make a big difference to your decision.
Yes, it’s been brought to my attention that over the last few years, Harvard has turned their engineering “division” into a formal school. And while it has grown somewhat in the last 2 years, their is still a world of difference (with respect to quality of faculty, research funding, total educational resources, and breadth of student body) between Harvard and Stanford engineering.
2. Harvard has stronger teaching in most humanities and social science subjects
This is a generalization, and based only on my observations of Harvard and my 4 years at Stanford. Their undergrad teaching in the ‘BA’ subjects is simply of a higher quality - primarily a result of being able to attract by far the best professors (which in turn attract the most talented grad students who often do a bulk of the teaching).
3. Harvard is more academically competitive with respect to GPA, class standings, etc
Simply the result of an academically stronger undergraduate body. When you reach a “tipping point” of the number of highly-focused, hard-working students, it contributes to an overall student body that is simply harder-working, more academically interested, and so forth.
This is both a pro and a con. You may work harder, but ultimately have less to show for it.
4. Stanford encourages more academic exploration than Harvard
It’s easier to switch majors, you can “shop” classes for longer, and its easier to craft your own study program. In addition, Stanford has plenty of student-initiated courses on all sorts of interesting topics as well as many interdiscplinary programs.
This is great in one sense because you get to dabble in many different areas, truly explore your academic and intellectual interests, and so forth.
The con is that, relative to Harvard, you may not develop sufficient depth in any one area.
The cultural differences between the two
1. Stanford is more laid-back
This goes hand-in-hand with the earlier point about academic competitiveness. Stanford students are simply more cooperative, friendly, and generally relaxed relative to their Harvard counterparts. While Stanford can be known for the “duck syndrome” (calm above water, paddling furiously below water), this still pales in comparison to the daily intensity that is Cambridge.
2. Harvard is somewhat more integrated into its neighbor city (Boston)
Stanford is pretty much a bubble. San Francisco is 45 minutes away by car, and most students don’t own a car. However, Harvard and its surrounding area is much more pedestrian friendly, and you’ll be exposed more to Boston and its city life than Stanford students with SF.
That’s not to say that Stanford has nothing to do - it’s just that your campus years will be focused, literally, on-campus.
3. Stanford has a history of entrepreneurship, while Harvard focus on more traditional careers
If you’re looking to do something off the beaten path, Stanford will have more resources and better mentorship to help you get there. Harvard is more focused - both its institutional resources as well as its student body - on standard career paths like business, government, etc.
That’s not to say you can’t have a successful corporate business career from Stanford or be a famous entrepreneur from Harvard. I’m talking more about the norm - not the exception.
That ends our discussion today. I hope that’s provided you a better view on the key differences between the two schools, so you can make a more informed decision (and also, use this info to write better college admissions essays!).
Applying to Harvard? Learn how average students can get into Ivy League schools.
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{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Wow we can comment now??
John - just want to thank you for the articles. It’s been soooo helpful, I’ve been reading for weeks now and I’m also signed up for your email newsletter and can’t wait to hear more so please keep posting!
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Tabatha - glad I can help out. Stay tuned in the email newsletter because something big is coming!
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Hi John,
Please post more about Ivy League schools not the big 3 (HYP). I’m interested in Brown and Columbia. Also, can I get a discount on your guide for being a subscriber?
Clay
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Clay - unfortunately I can’t offer a discount to the admissions guide, although if you sign up for Admissions 301 I share some content there that I have yet to discuss in the articles.
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Your articles have been very different from what we’ve been reading! We have a private counselor who suggests advice that is often opposite of what you recommend, but I get the feeling that your advice is more pertinent for students looking to get into the top schools (which is what I want for my daughter). Please keep up the posts and let us know if you produce videos as you say in your 301 newsletter. Thank you.
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Dona - thanks for your readership. You must realize that the advice I give is both very blunt and very unvarnished. Plus, it’s a particular perspective after having gone through this stressful process myself and then spending several years reading application after application. I’ve gotten a feel now for what stands out - and it isn’t the same generic stuff that everyone else tells you. I hope that helps clarify things.
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When you say Harvard doesn’t have an engineering program, do you mean you can’t take classes in engineering like mechanics or robotics? Or do you mean you can’t get a degree in engineering? Not sure what that means, because I looked through the course catalog and it seems like they do have some interesting engineer classes. Thanks!
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Sharif, it means you can’t receive a BS (Bachelor of Science) in a certified engineering program (such as mechanical, engineering, etc). They have no formal “school” for engineering, although there are professors there who teach engineering-related courses and pretty much all of the “hard sciences”. Hope that helps!
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John Dorian - I’m mom of 17 years old daughter. I bought your book for her and we have some questions, can I email you? She seems to have taken a lot of advice dearly from your “ebook”.
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Nina - don’t hesitate to email me with any questions. Thanks for your purchase of the book
John AT hopelesstoharvard DOT com
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When does your 2nd edition come out?? Will I still get lifetime updates if I buy it now?
How different is the Admissions course from the guide? It’s still wroth it to buy the guide right?
Thanks!!
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John Dorian Reply:
May 4th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
The 2nd edition will be delayed for a bit, as I’m launching a membership site that will have video, audio, downloadable templates, and even more! Stay tuned and sign up for Admissions 301 if you want the latest on the new project, as well as lots of free videos when the time comes. Thanks C!
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I just finished reading your book and its fabulous!! However, I still have a few questions for you - can you give me more advice on the right extracurriculars to do? I have a rigorous class schedule but am not sure how to build my “spike” in the right way. I am really passionate about film and politics if that helps. Thanks John!
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John Dorian Reply:
May 6th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Penelope, feel free to email me a more detailed description of your accomplishments and I will try to give you some pointers.
In general, just find clubs that personally interest you. If there are none, then start on! This is the best way to get involved, because only if you truly enjoy doing something will you excel and be happy.
Thanks again for buying the book! I’m glad you enjoyed reading it.
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John I really want to go to Yale. It’s something I’ve worked for and am willing to do anything to ensure me a spot at Yale, but all my friends think its impossible. Is it smart to apply to just one school? Will it give me an edge if they see that Yale is my only choice?
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John Dorian Reply:
May 6th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Mike, it’s understandable that you have such a set goal. However, never under any circumstances should you only apply to one school. And you should never tell them that - it will not help your admissions chances in the slightest.
My best advice is to continue working hard, try to differentiate yourself along your personal interests, and seek the help of others who have “been there, done that”.
Best of luck with all.
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Hi - I don’t want to come across as rude, but is your book for real? Will you really accept a refund if I don’t like it? How do I know that your advice is legitimate and not fake? Please clarify, thanks
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11th Grader,
It’s an understandable concern. When I was first reading the sales page, I was also wondering myself - after all, it can come across a little like those online herbal medicine products or other products that you feel are vaguely scams.
But his copy and writing style convinced me, and I decided to give it a purchase because worse case, I can get a refund directly from PayPal (even if he refused to give me a refund personally!).
So I purchased the book - and I have to say, I was shocked by how much advice he actually provided about admissions to places specifically like Harvard and Stanford. My 2 daughters have been reading it for some weeks now and we’ve revamped a lot of our plans to fit into his strategies (which for the most part, make complete sense). It’s like a breathe of fresh air when you’ve been reading the same general advice over and over (and we even have a private college counselor that we’re using less and less now).
So I would give it a hearty thumbs up. Feel free also to email me directly if you’re skeptical - my address is acuiller@gmail.com - please no spam!
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John Dorian Reply:
May 7th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Andrew - I must thank you for that extremely kind word.
Just in full disclosure - Andrew also wrote me a testimonial on the product page for Hopeless to Harvard.
11th gradur - if you have any doubts/suspicions, feel free to contact me directly. I’m happy to address any questions.
I do believe the book is worth 10x the price, and only one person so far has disagreed with me by asking for a refund. However, if you do want a refund, I will give you one no questions asked.
Thanks again Andrew - best of luck to your daughter during your second time around!
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Do adcoms from different colleges talk to each other?
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What about grad school, can this book help those applying to grad school too or just undergrad?
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Do Harvard & MIT still have a relationship where it is not hard to take classes at the other school if not available at home? Other schools have had similar relationships, e.g. Caltech and Occidental.
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I attended both Harvard and Stanford. I found Harvard’s strength to be its research library, but the community was extremely unwelcoming, isolating, and socially exclusive. An intellectually driven young man with an outgoing personality, I was perceived as a social and intellectual threat on the Harvard campus and terrorized and rejected accordingly. Stanford’s library holdings are dwarfed by those of Harvard, but both the undergraduate and graduate students at Stanford are less obsessed with one’s personal pedigree. Stanford’s campus clearly has its advantages, though Harvard has a slight edge on campus-adjacent nightlife. I found the quality of instruction at both institutions to be excellent.
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I read your various articles on the blog and it was really helpful, change my perspective towards the admission process to ivies. Although there are no mentions about how this process is carried out for international students especially for those who haven’t taken IB.
And also I’m well rounded off at extra circular activities but for a fact that I’m studying in a small country, we do not have “national” level competitions/meet. I basically mean that what we might consider as “nationals” is most likely to be considered as state or even district level competition, how would this affect my application?
and it is awful that I’m unable to maintain a balance between ECs and study time, would you please lead me on how to maintain the balance.
yet again, a very helpful blog, thank you
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At this point in time, I do not think it is fair to say that:
“Harvard is more academically competitive with respect to GPA, class standings, etc”
the difference is marginal. I would like evidence for this claim because people might actually think it’s true. It is clearly wrong nowadays, a few years ago, maybe, but Stanford’s competitiveness has increased dramatically in the past few years.
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How many AP classes should you take to be a science major in Harvard University.
Pre-med?
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BELOW IS A REPOST FROM ANOTHER SITE THAT SHOWS AN INTERESTING CONTRAST BETWEEN HARVARD AND STANFORD.
This Harvard and Stanford alum recently got a call from Harvard asking for donations to the endowment. Are they kidding? The administrators for my graduate program were unproductive, unresponsive, and incompetent. They were like a Soviet bureaucracy: you could be the energizer bunny at jumping through their paperwork hoops and still they could screw you in the end - they were THAT incompetent. Forget professionalism — one administrator actually yelled at my face when I inquired about information in my student records! He was like a kindergartner in Romper Room, no exaggeration. I objected on ethical, environmental, and financial grounds to printing and binding a final project using heavy weight, bleached paper and hardcover binding. They refused to discuss the issue and withheld my diploma until I acquiesced. Meanwhile, people all over campus gloated how “crimson is the new green.” Besides, with research projects, coursework, and extracurriculars, how many extra hours in a day does a busy professional/student have for administrators who forget to process documents, outright lose paperwork, and waste time? They almost screwed up my transcript for failing to investigate something! While at Harvard I took classes with undergrads on sports teams who were so unengaged, unintelligent, and uninterested it was stunning. These same undergrads, desperate to exclude me from campus life, would actively mock me as I tripped in snow walking home, cuss me out under their breath as I walked through the Yard, and try to convince as many undergrads and grad students as possible to ignore me. They enjoyed access to professional, networking, and recruitment opportunities that I was institutionally denied access to. What made my social experience at Harvard even more absurd is that I actually enjoyed networking with elites! Meanwhile, my advisor, whose every event, seminar, and class I attended in earnest for a year was too busy to write me even the simplest letter of recommendation so that I could pursue my dream of a PhD and the lifetime of teaching, educational leadership, and research that would follow. To put this in context, I was the Harvard student who practically hero worshipped his instructors. Admittedly, I still think my professors at Harvard were amazing, but what a sad outcome at a university I loved so much when I had initially set foot on campus. Contrast Harvard with Stanford. The minute I was admitted, Stanford plugged me into practically every professional recruitment program available - 6 months before I even set foot on campus! The professors at Stanford are equally brilliant and they take the time to talk to graduate students about research projects, field interests, and - critical for an aspiring grad student - they write letters of recommendation. Stanford students are more intelligent (and kind!) than their Harvard counterparts - a statement qualified only on the limited range of classes I took at both schools, but noteworthy as an individual’s experience nonetheless. In all fairness, I found the same instruction quality at both universities. And while Stanford’s library for my field fell short compared to the researcher’s Disneyland that Widener turned out to be, it was nevertheless impressive. But Stanford outside of the classroom couldn’t be more different: at Stanford I never feared being cussed out, mocked, or socially excluded. At Harvard, the path to campus success is paved through advertising where your dad went to school. At Stanford, that’s refreshingly irrelevant, and should be. For such an expensive investment of one’s time and money, there’s no room to take chances. So, if you’re not a member of the American elite, why gamble with the arbitrary approval/disapproval system of Harvard? Case in point: without elite connections or a seat in a PhD program, I walked straight into the worst job market since the Great Depression. If Harvard wants to grow it’s endowment further, they should focus on the elites whose dads did not tell them to pay their own way through life. At this point, how should I contribute to Harvard’s endowment? After I have a truly fair shot of admission to their PhD program. In the meantime, I’m probably not the best candidate for donations. Sincerely, Anonymous Harvard Alum
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I attend a small town high school and I’m not taking all AP classes is there still hope for me?
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